Good evening, I'm Dennis McNamara. Tonight it's our pleasure to present an interview with producer Gary Katz. This talk traces Gary's history with Steely Dan and some of the other things he's been doing production-wise lately. Gary, welcome and thank you for coming. I think the best thing to do, because everybody seems to define it differently, is before we even start discussing the music you have worked with, could you define how you see yourself as producer, because there seems to be many variances of it.
Gary Katz: I think everybody works in a different fashion. You try and mold what you do to the artist you're working with at the time. They all have their own ways of working and a producer, to me, is someone who can work with an artist who has a given talent and make that talent work on record. And it takes different shapes and forms with each artist, depending on the artist.
DM: How did you become a producer?
GK: I used to hang around the studios when I was in my 20s and I had some friends who were recording at the time, who were successful, which gave me an entree into the studio as sort of a friend and a watcher. It was something I wanted to do and I had a sense that I could do well.
DM: How did you meet Fagen and Becker?
GK: I met Donald and Walter about nine, ten years ago through a mutual friend and they were trying to sell songs as songwriters. I was trying to get different positions in producing and I was producing an album here and there and we just had a marriage that worked and we wound up working together. I went to California and got a job at Dunhill, called Don and Walt and they came out and we just started to work.
DM: When did the idea of getting the band together come?
GK: Soon after we got to California, 'cause they had originally come out as staff writers. They were writing songs for groups like the Grass Roots, that didn't last long. I mean the interest level wasn't very high after a while. It was always intended to have a band around the songs that were being written, and it was a matter of being in the right place at the right time to be able to do that. We couldn't afford it before then, had no basis for a band. I talked to the people at ABC and we put a band together.
DM: Now before there was even a Steely Dan, there was a record recently released, I think it was a movie soundtrack, which was trying to cash in on Steely Dan's success, "You Gotta Walk It Like You Talk It"? Were you involved in it?
GK: No, we were friends at the time, I knew what was going on, but they did this album with someone else and it was just an assignment. They were always looking to earn a living at the time and these people were making a low-budget movie and they got Donald and Walter real cheap to do low-budget music. The movie was out for about a day and a half and recently I guess the people who owned the tapes felt they could cash in on their success, so they put it out.
DM: It's not a new album by any means.
GK: No, I think there was some problem with that on the cover and since it originally came out, some extremely fine print has been put on the cover to state that might not be so, but I understand it's very fine.
DM: I'd like you to talk about some of the songs on these albums from the producer's viewpoint if you can. What was it like going in and doing that first album?
GK: It was different than any of the others for lots of reasons. We had an additional lead singer so that, well Donald just felt at the time that he wasn't capable of singing all the songs and people might not like it and so forth. So we went out and got a more commercial-sounding singer to relieve everybody's tension, except mine, 'cause I didn't care for it very much. So that album was odd because two songs were sung by someone other than Donald. And it's not something I care for. So on some of the making of the album it was exciting because it was our chance to finally see if we could do anything, and at the same time, it was pulling a little at me 'cause I didn't like everything that we did nor did Donald and Walter. That's just the way it happened.
DM: My feeling is the most-copied Steely Dan song is "Dirty Work," meaning recorded by other artists. I'm told it's not a favorite of the band's.
GK: Generally it's not a favorite of the band, I mean Donald, Walter and myself. No.
DM: It must be hard when you have to put together a "Best Of" LP.
GK: I think we go to the studio liking all the songs we're gonna record. I mean, we have a few songs more than we put on an album or we'll record more than we, can use, but insofar as the material goes, we really like all the songs that we go in with. When we finish, some are successful and some aren't and that's the only way we know how to judge it, not whether it's great or it's good or it's bad, just whether it's successful and none of us consider "Dirty Work" a successful record.
DM: I must say it's a tribute to all your abilities that Steely Dan albums are appreciated by so many people.
GK: It's what we work for. It's probably what's most gratifying about anything.
DM: "Do It Again" was an important song because a single's always important.
GK: We had no idea that was a single. That was the farthest thing from our mind that a long repeating phrase would be a hit song. It never entered our minds. The only reason it was the first cut was because it sounded great. And we wanted to put something in that when they put the needle down, it had a nice feel to it.
DM: Did you do the edit that was eventually to become the hit?
GK: Oh yeah, we do all the edits.
DM: Is that a problem being the perfectionists that you are?
GK: It's a serious problem because none of the songs are constructed with edits in mind. They generally should work except in the making of the record usually with the solos that we do. The solos may not allow it to work, so yes, we have songs that just couldn't edit. I wouldn't edit "Deacon Blues," which the record company wanted. That just didn't edit. There was an edit that Donald and Walter were considering for a long time on "Peg" that just wouldn't work and we wouldn't do it. Sometimes it does work, you know. On "Do It Again," it made it much more successful for us.
DM: Are singles an afterthought, or is it considered in there?
GK: If it's considered, it's considered in the sense of the writing. Once the writing is done and we go in to make a record of it, I'm speaking for all of us, but I'm sure we all just go in and try to make a good record of something we wanna hear and I guess if you have a hit song... Yeah, we think about it of course. We try not to let it impose on what we do, but we think about it.
DM: Some people think it's a sell-out to do a single, but there's really no other way to get your music across?
GK: No, there is no other alternative, you may not be able to do anything about it (Iong pause) ... that's a tough one for me.
DM: As a song, was "Do It Again" a difficult one to do?
GK: No, that was the easiest one to cut, I just cut real easy.
DM: "Reelin' In The Years"... Elliot Randall solo, did you know him from the studio?
GK: We knew Elliot from NY before we came to California. We'd all been friends and acquaintance, and we were in the studio and trying to do a solo and Elliot came in to say hi and he was in a good place that day and we said plug that sucker in and that's what he played. Like I said, just ripped if off and that was the end of it. And that's the way Elliot plays when he's really playing well -- just plug him in and he plays. There was no punching or editing in there, it's just played. (Plays "Reelin ..." )
DM: Another success. Was there pressure to get out on the road?
GK: Tremendous pressure from the record company to go out and tour and support the album.
DM: You must have some songs you can look back and think and talk about.
GK: I don't listen to that album very often. I don't listen to most of them often, but this one I haven't heard for a while. I love "Do It Again," but one of my favorites is "Fire In The Hole" which is a forgotten little tune. I've always been attracted to that song and I consider that a successful record.
DM: Why?
GK: It captured the essence of the song, I mean whatever that song was mean! to mean, we got it through on tape and it felt that way when it was done. It was nasty interest.
DM: Do you remember it being difficult to get into its final form?
GK: Not especially. I don't remember any of it being especially difficult in relation to what has transpired since.
DM: It's wonderful, the evolution of Steely Dan. You can almost hear it building from LP to LP. Do you get that sense?
GK: No, not at all. Each album is a separate entity, I mean, I'm sure there is a sense within Donald and Walter that as time goes by, that keeps a common ground or something moving ahead, but they're absolutely not even song to song, much less album to album. Each song is a total entity.
DM: Did you tour?
GK: Oh yeah, we toured a lot with that. We toured with a singer named David Palmer who did...
DM: Who's in the Big Wha-Koo now.
GK: ... who is in the Big Wha-Koo now, correct. And we did a very unsuccessful tour for that record, mainly because it was thrown together. The record took off real quick and we didn't have a band as such, it was just a rip-off.
DM: Did "Countdown To Ecstasy" come relatively quickly after that, after the success of the singles and the tour?
GK: Pretty quickly. Within a year that album was out, 8, 9 months l'd say.
DM: You're also an A & R person for Warner Brothers.
GK: For want of a better word.
DM: Also known as the third member of Steely Dan.
GK: I don't know what you mean. You could tell me what that means.
DM: One of the difficult things coming to talk to you is that you can sit down with four people and each one has a different conclusion about you guys.
GK: You have two choices in this business: you can either go out and party and be on the pages, or you can lead your own life and be a mystique and let them figure it out, not to be coy, just not to take part and that's just the way it evolved. Most of the rumors are untrue, we do interviews and, well, a lot of what we've read just isn't true.
DM: The mystery adds to the attraction.
GK: It's well ... as it turns out.
DM: What was "Countdown" like going in and getting ready for?
GK: We got a little more ambitious, and we just had Donald singing which was much better, and so the attitude was a little different going in. But it was a little more ambitious musically and, as I recall, it was a little more difficult to make than the first album, in the sense of now having the freedom to start to be as meticulous as we are.
DM: "Show Biz Kids" was the single.
GK: That was an ill-fated single that we selected ourselves. At that time we were still picking our singles -- since then, we've been absolutely avoiding that. And nothing to say.
DM: Difficult task, isn't it?
GK: For us it's impossible. We were never right.
DM: "Show Biz Kids" also had one of those words we're not supposed to put on the air, too.
GK: Yeah, I know, not intentionally. Donald did have some concern at the moment and we all did for about 3 seconds and then we tried one more word. I think Donald said "I'll try something" and it sounded silly and that was the end of it.
DM: You did it well...
GK: We did it with style and panache, I thought. (Plays "Show Biz Kids")
DM: "My Old School" is a real popular one.
GK: Yeah, they like that on the radio, sounds good on the radio, too. Some of the records sound better than others on the radio.
DM: What do you remember about that one?
GK: Jeffrey turning red doing the guitar solo. (Plays "My Old School")
DM: Do you have a favorite on "Countdown" that you could talk about?
GK: I have a few favorites on this. I love the song "Razor Boy." I love the feel of the song and that was a successful record. I'm a Drifters fan and there's something about that song that reminds me of the Drifters, so I like that one a lot. You're gonna get me to tell you each little part I like about this. The middle part of "The Boston Rag" -- l like Jeffrey's solo in the bridge section and I liked "Your Gold Teeth" for the track that we cut out in the sense of music that we started to get. "King Of The World" was a successful record because it captured the feeling of the end of the earth, which is I guess what the song is about and there was some eerie sense about that.
DM: Also in comparison with the first album, it sounds like you made much more use of the studio.
GK: We started to take advantage of the fact that we had success on the first one and we weren't gonna be rushed through it and as I said before, we start to -- I guess for ourselves -- set a mode of working that would wind up the way it is now, which is very meticulous and given a choice of sounding right or wrong, we make it sound right and that takes time.
DM: Something that has always interested me is the ability you guys had in selecting a particular musician for a particular part. Were you conscious that you were becoming this selective musicians authority?
GK: We realized it when some of the other band members made mention of it. And it works better for our music to be able to have the liberty of using people who play in a different style for a different tune and not be locked into any one plane, no matter how good he is, for the sense of style. It was always the intention -- at least mine -- to make it a workshop situation whereby we could find players; it is gratifying to have found some players at the point of their own personal development and have all of us work together and make it comfortable so that there was work done on a very high level. And when it was finished, they would move on to something of their own that was as successful for themselves as well as us. And have a relationship like that with some players that we still have.
DM: Is there a pattern to who does what?
GK: As you start to work with players and you get to know them, you make an educated guess as to which player would be more comfortable with styles of music and types of music than others and sometimes you're right and I think we do pretty good at guessing who would work. On "Peg" we had numerous guitar players play that solo, all very well known, until we got one.
DM: Steve Khan?
GK: No, Jay Graydon. Steve, as it turned out, is one of the few players who didn't try it. But he's one of the very few who didn't. He played the rhythm guitar on "Peg" and he's gonna be playing dates with us this month. But on that solo we tried a lot of people and we didn't have a clue.
DM: Is this an expensive way to record an album?
GK: It's a very expensive way to record an album and I make no excuse for it, 'cause it drives me crazy. I can't figure out why it should be that way. But that's what we do for a living, we don't tour as such -- or haven't for a while -- and basically what we do is make records as a full-time business, much the same way a film maker makes a film or an author writes a book. I mean, that's what he does for a living. Time's not an essence. When it's done, it's done. And in the course of making the kind of albums we do and having our own set standard, they take quite a while and it becomes expensive in studio time.
DM: What about touring that makes money, generates sales etc?
GK: To me it was never the motivating factor. The first two tours were record company oriented and high pressure. But the last tour was one that everyone wanted to do and we put together a band that everyone was happy with and it was pretty good. We were happy with that. And since then, it just hasn't worked out. It's not a lifestyle that's comfortable nor anyone wants to be involved in, given a choice. We've been very lucky in being able to be successful at what we do on somewhat our own terms. Someday I'm sure there'll be a show. I don't know when, but it won't be motivated for being able to earn a lot of money, 'cause that's been the case for quite a while. It just hasn't worked out in our recording schedule.
DM: "Countdown" didn't have the advantage of a hit single.
GK: Not at all. It was total bombs. We absolutely bombed out with that one.
DM:You had a big hit with "Rikki."
GK: That was a successful song and it came out great.
DM: What is that in the front? Is it a vibe?
GK: It's an instrument called a flopanda. And it's a marimba-type instrument. (Plays "Rikki")
DM: I spent an evening with Billy Joel about 8 months ago listening to "Aja." And every 5 or 10 seconds, I would go, "What is that?" and I don't think Billy knew either."
GK: We have one common interest: we both have a great sax solo on our records by Phil Woods.
DM: What do you remember about "Rikki," recording it and doing it?
GK: That was the start of a whole new sort of Steely Dan 'cause we had sort of disbanded the band by then and we started to be able to use the musicians as we wanted to. We started to get an opportunity to pick our own players and make the records individualized as they were written. I like that album, there are some songs on there I like a lot. "Barrytown", I love "Barrytown."
DM: I've been told that "Barrytown" is a pseudonym for Tarrytown and it's all about the Moonies situation.
GK: Oh no, that's completely off. That's not right, I think that's just about a small town. I love that song, it's great. (Plays "Barrytown," then "Pretzel Logic")
GK: I love the way the blues came out in that song. Walter's solo was great and the lyric was terrific, it was a funny lyric and it really worked well, I like that a lot. And "Any Major Dude Will Tell You," one of my favorites, still is. That's about it, the others are OK.
DM: "Night By Night" has a great feel to it.
GK: It does have a good feel and we got a good track and that was the song where we found Jeff Porcaro in the middle of the night. We couldn't get a track, no matter what we did on the song. We just couldn't get it right and Denny said "Hey, I know some guys," so we called these two guys that Denny knew who turned out to be David Paich and Jeff Porcaro. And David and Jeff and Donald and Walter cut a track one night in the barn at Cherokee. That's what I remember about that. And it was a good solo, Jeffrey played a good solo at the end of that, too. (Plays "Night By Night")
DM: Someone pointed out to me that it might have been missed by the radio stations because it was between two very popular songs.
GK: Nothing we can do about it.
DM: Sequencing is another mystery.
GK: So many sequences before it goes on, I mean it's just pot luck, we do the best we can, there's no science to that at all. Except the first cut, first side.
DM: Is that a producer's responsiblity -- the order of the songs?
GK: It's probably as important as making the record in the sense that it sets the feel in much the same way you would edit a movie and put the pieces together or the way you would put anything together so that it flows from beginning to end with some sense of enjoyment. And it's a very difficult thing to do 'cause everyone feels another thing. And there are three of us. Lots of lists. Lots of lists.
DM: I'm really pleased to hear you treat them as special, as art, and not as a business thing.
GK: No, that isn't the way the band works.
DM: "Katy Lied"...
GK: Our biggest disappointment. That's a very difficult one. There were some real problems with that record and although there are some songs on there that to this day are still my favorites, it is my biggest disappointment of any of the albums in the sense of acceptance. We had some real problems in recording that album and that eventually came out on lacquer for electronic reasons, so I don't listen to it any more as a rule. The album was recorded and in high fidelity terms was the best-sounding thing we had done far and away. Something had gotten messed up in the electronics before it was done and it didn't quite ever sound the same, so it was a real disappointment in that sense to us. And then for me personally, I thought the album would be accepted on a much broader scale than it was, so that was something of a disappointment.
DM: Your picture was on it.
GK: That was the beginning of the disappointment.
DM: Is that your hand on the back of "Countdown"?
GK: No, definitely not.
DM: "Bad Sneakers"...
GK: One of my favorites. I still love that record. I absolutely love it. It was a terrible mistake not putting that out as the first single. But just a long line of single mistakes.
DM: Was it a tough song to get down?
GK: No, it wasn't. Hughie McCracken played on that song and after a while, sort of locked the tune into a great groove with everyone else and it worked out great. (Plays "Bad Sneakers")
DM: Another one that's a hot rock and roll song is "Rose Darling".
GK: Yeah, it's not one of my favorites ... I mean I haven't thought about it for a long-I haven't heard it for a long time; it's OK, I like that. (Plays "Rose Darling")
DM: "Dr. Wu" is another favorite of ours, with a sax solo by David Sanborn. Sanborn sails.
GK: One of my three favorite Steely Dan songs. It's not David Sanborn. That's Phil Woods. (Plays "Dr. Wu")
DM: Did you get the sense of how wonderful that song was as you were doing it?
GK: That and "Deacon Blues" were the two songs, as we did them, that were emotionally crushing to me. Just a matter of where you are at those f)la(!es. DM: Did you do a lot of takes?
GK: Oh, yeah. But the hardest song we ever recorded was "Aja" in the sense of music, and it was the second take. That was a long, drawn-out piece that had to be played well. No, there's no accounting for how long it'll take or ho short it'll
w
take. Although we (lo have now a standing rule that if a song takes more that a certain amount of time, we can it and move on.
OM- "Everyone's Gone To The Movies"...
GK: A very funny little song. I like that song a lot, it's real funny.
DM: Almost a Latin feel.
GK: It's a little perverse, is what it is. (Plays "Movies")
DM: "Your Gold Teeth 11"-Was that intended to give you another let-loose type
thing?
GK: I don't know what to tell you about "YGT 11" except that we liked "YGT I" and they wrote a sequel to it and we did it. (Plays "Your Gold Teeth 11)
DM: "Any World"...
GK: I think Donald and Walter like that more than I do. That's not one of my favorites and I didn't think it was as successful a record as it could have been, either. I don't know why I'm saying that, they'll kill me. But what can I tell you?
D M- Does anyone tell you that they're goine back and discovering "Katy Lied" now that "Aja" has been so successful?
GK: Not particularly.
DM: That's a shame. They'll find it.
GK: If they want to, they will.
DM: This was the first time Michael McDonald was around to my knowledge.
GK: Yes, Michael McDoobie or McDonald, as he's known, came to my attention through a tape as a solo artist and he just had so much tone that there was no reason in the world not to use him. So we brought him in the studio and he just has a tremendous blend with Donald. It just works out very well and we ve been working with Michael since and I'm real happy that Michael went on to do his own thing.
OM- Two vocalists I can pick out in any situation are Donald and Michael.
GK: Yeah, very easy, totally distinctive artists which I think is what's most attractive to all of us, I guess, is that they're distinctive in their own way. Mi(iii,iel's great.
DM: Hobert 1-itinter is the lyricist with The Dead, but he is considered to be a member of the I)an(l. When I think of Steely Dan, I think of three, not two.
GK: Undoubtedly, in any given situation, there's a chemistry between a situation that allows one person to be @Ble*V do what he does freely. And the three of us, with all the tension we have with each other, or by ourselves, undoubtedly bring that to the. studio. We're ab]6-@ channel what we do individually as a unit and that's maybe why it's very ... because I really have nothing to do with creating the music as such. I really don't.
OM- You produce it.
GK: Yes, but I don't write it or arrange it. Once the music is written and somewhat put together by Donald and Walter, then it becomes a three man operation and choosing players and places and things we're gonna do and how we'll do it, but they create the music entirely.
OM-'I'IioiiiLis.1t@ll'(!i-soii Kaye. I don't unfortunately have his albums with me.
GK: No one else does either.
OM- You produced Dirk Hamilton's first one. How'd you get involved in these
other projects?
GK: They were on ABC because at the time I was working for ABC as working with Donald and Walter. And a mutual friend had Dirk come in the office and sing some songs for me and I liked 'em and there was no Steely Dan project in the near future, so I did an album with him.
DM: What do you look back to as far as Dirk Hamilton?
GK: It was a difficult project in that Dirk is a distinctive artist who has his own ways and to this day, although we're really good friends and I speak to him often and have helped him on his future projects in some ways, there wasn't a good chemistry. I just didn't gel as well as it should've for Dirk, not for me more so than for Dirk and that's basically what I remember. I don't have any had memories about the album-it just wasn't as successful as I would've liked, and I'm sure Dirk.
DM: Again a lot of evolution took place in the music. What was "The -Royal Scam" like?
GK: Gee, that album's sort of blank, I have to think about that for a minute.
OM- I know initially a lot of people reacted negatively because there was almost a pseudo-disconess in there at certain points.
GK: I don't know what to tell you about this album as far as remembering what went on. There are a couple of songs on here I love. I love "Haitian Divorce'@ it's my favorite song on that album and I love "Sign In Stranger". I thought that came out great.
DM: And "The Fez" was a neat little tune.
GK: And "The Fez" came out very nicely. It was a really nice melody and worked out well and that was a disco sort of number. And I liked the "Caves Of Altamira", I thought that was a good tune, too, and I like "Kid Charlemagne". Gee, I kinds like this album. Not so bad. This album was pretty smooth making. It took us some time and we did some dates in NY and some dates in LA and it took us more time than it should've but I like this album overall. But again, I would've liked more acceptance. I think as you get to a point where you put out enough records that do get such critical acclaim over a period of time, you are really leaving yourself open to comparison to everything else you ever (lid. And I)e(!atise the music is so (liverse, I mean from album to album or even cut to cut, you have to expect you're a mark unless you stand up ti) each individual's criteria of what's good. You mentioned that you guys have whole other feelings about songs than might. It shouldn't sound arrogant in thinking about it, now it might soun(I arrogant to sit there and pick I like this, I doiit like that. That's not really what I bad in mind at all, it's just that in asking a question off the cuff about things you haven't thought of for a long time. It's just instinct to say I like it, I don't like it. Like trading cards-want it, need it, got it.
OM- It's hard to realize that you guys live with a piece of music ... hear it God knows how many times.
GK: Your whole perspective is distorted. I have no perspective whatsoever about anything you're asking me, nor anyone else should.
I'Larry,, turn yourquitar up as loud as
you can... and 'Make it 'nasty."'
DM: "Kid Charlemagne", there's an organ thing in there. There's an organ part
about halfway in that just does it for me.
GK: An organ? The only songs I can even think of .. Paul Griffin played it on "The Fez" and Donald played it on "Dirty Work". I don't know if we've ever used an organ besides that, maybe we have. (Plays "Kid Charlemagne")
DM: "Caves Of Altaniira" had a great horn sound.
GK: It did, I like that. That came out very well. I was pleased with that song.
DM: I think the horns are the hook, they grab you right away.
GK: Yeah, I like the chorus. (Plays "Caves Of Altaniira")
BM- How did you decide oil that opening for "Don't Take Me Alive"?
GK: "Larry, turn your guitar up as loud as you can and play a little piece in front and make it nasty." That's how it came about.
DM: Was the intention to grab your attention? 'Cause, boy does it grab you.
GK: That's an example of maybe what I was trying to say before about each song being it's own thing. That song had a dark overtone and it was intended to be that and it's just the way it came out. That's what the song is. A nice little song.
DM: "Dog Day Afternoon" comes to mind when I hear that song.
GK: I see nastier things than that when I hear that song. (Plays "Don't Take Me Alive")
OM- Did you feel good about "Tile Royal Scam"?
GK: Yeah, some parts of it. As a whole it was a successful album.
OM- Are you guys heavily critical of your works, in perspective especially?
GK: Yes, at any time. And at times more so than at other times, and sometimes more one person than another, just depending oil what's going on.
DM: Do you test people who are totally removed to listen?
GK: Not till it's finished. As a matter of fact, it's not general policy that people come in the studio as such. It's not closed doors either and it's not guards outside, but generally it's not conducive to our working to have observers. -bm-- w L@oll@e to tile olle-ilial still s-ells-ti-i u@aiids a , w@e .-I-Was gonna ask you about this: I saw a great article oil "AJLC' listing it as [lie "Sgt. 1'el)l)ees" of the '70s and the theory within it was so good that whether you want to look oil Lila[ as the heavy compliment it is or the problems that taking it as a compliment might cause, it certainly is a remarkable turning point in the record industry especially for commercial radio. The fact that the songs tiila t were liitsitigies oil this record I don't think AM programmers around tile country would have even let in the door three or four years ago. How do you feel about that?
GK: Great. I mean I'd like to think we had some influence in expanding program directors' acceptance in what they will play and what they won't play. You're getting me on a tough subject here, and I don't know that I wanna get involved in that, but I would wish they would play more music that had a wider spectrum than they do. So I was really pleased by the fact that they played this.
OM- Was this a difficult record to make?
GK: Yes. That was a difficult record to make for any number of reasons.
OM- What would they be?
GK: It was ambitious, we were having business problems with record companies and there was always something going on that had nothing to do with music. That really starts to get to you as you are starting to work and really don't need record company people as they are. So in the midst of making this album, we had some real problems with people at ABC who are no longer there and who made the pr essure of making the album greater on a daily basis. And it took a long time to make, and that itself creates pressure 'cause I have to see Donald and Walter every day, and they have to see me every day, and I don't care what relationship you have with anyone, you need relief. I mean you just don't wanna see the same people if you don't have anything to say. I mean, in that sense it gets difficult. That album was difficult for that reason.
OM- You used a variety of locations, too, didn't you?
GK: No more so than on "The Royal Scam". We cut all the tracks except "Peg" in Los Angeles, we did all the overdubbing in LA and did some of the mixing here. But most of it was done in Los Angeles.
DM: "Aja" was the first album to give essentially a definitive listing of the musicians and their roles. Was that a conscious thing that you guys decided to do?
GK: Yeah. We always were thanked by the musicians who we did work with for 1) treating them well and 2) allowing them the freedom to play, as well as always giving everyone credit for playing when, in a lot of cases, bands who use people find it not to their advantage to list that they don't play themselves. So we always felt OK about it because the musicians themselves always would call and thank us. But after a while, it got to the point where we weren't trying to scam anybody or fool anybody and it just seemed logical that we should let people know-there were so many questions after a while-who played what? And that, more or less, was a natural thing.
DM: Let's talk about some of the songs on this one. "Aja", you mentioned before, was the second take.
GK: Yeah, Steve Gad(l played (irums and it was the first time we had used him and everybody in the room understood the song somehow when they saw it. It was a very difficult piece. There was no editing. It was all one piece and they just played it. The trick of making a record is putting great musicians in a room and
getting good music. With "Aja" it just worked. (Plays "Aja")
OM- The most incredible hook and ..E! that you said was especially used was "Deacon Blues".
GK: Yeah, I love that song. It's a special song to me.
DM: What was it like making that song?
GK: That's a difficult song to make because there's so many parts in that song. There are a lot of parts that overlap each other. Pete Christlieb's solo was real important. It was just a complicated puzzle to put together. No problems as such, just tedious.
DM: But worth it?
GK: Oh, all the time worth it. The song was so good. But worth it. (Plays "Deacon Blues")
DM: "Black Cow" opens the record. I don't know what to say about "Black Cow" except it's there and it works.
GK: Nothing you can really say about "Black Cow". Not all the songs mean a hell of a lot. As much as they're intended to feel right and have a sense about them lyrically that flow, that's what I would say about "Black Cow".
DM: "Peg" was the hit single, a big record as far as that goes. Again a record that worked very well for what it was.
GK: It worked. It worked well. (Plays "Peg")
GK: McDonald made that record sound great. His parts on that song are great.
BM- And again you can pick out his voice if you're really listening.
GK: Well, in those parts, that was intentional. At that point we had tried another very famous singer who couldn't do it, but I'll leave that alone. And McDonald did it very well.
DM: That's interesting. What happens when x musician walks in and thinks he's done it and you don't want it?
GK: I usually tell them in a some nice way. Well, in some way. And we have that problem a lot. But I think most of the time when people come and work with us, there's an understanding that it's a workshop theory and we're calling them because we think it'll work and want it to work, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Some people take it better than others.
OM- "I Got The News"...
GM- That's a great little feel. I love that song. Donald and Walter had written that song about three years ago in a totally different style and somewhat different lyric and we had tried it, I think it was in "The Royal Scam" days and it didn't work so good, so they reworked it and we did it and it came out great. I was real happy with that. That was a surprise. (Plays "I Got The News") DM: And of course, closing out the album is "Josie".
GK: "Josie" is a great little nasty song. I love that song. No mommies and dad(lies like, ".Iosie". (I'Iiiys ".Iosie" to (!lose)